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(09-28-2010 01:08 PM)Marley and me Wrote: [ -> ]While I so appreciate your concerns I did have a contract that she was to be spayed at this time from the breeder! I also did discuss my concerns with my vet. It's too late I'm afraid, she went under the knife today...boo hooooooooooooooooo poor baby !

I pray she will be safe and free from these increased risks!

I waited as long as I could before her first heat and the vet told me spaying after maturity is a much more risky with other complications ! It's 6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of the other...and again I had no choice.

A Mastiff breeder should know better! And the vet also - we weren't talking about past maturity but rather between 18 and 28 months which is well before maturity but after the growth plates are closed and the risks have ameliorated.

You always have a choice. I can't imagine a breeder who would complain about a delay related to valid health concerns so long as you didn't breed her. After all, the breeder's primary concern is that you not breed her. Some vets seem to lack giant breed awareness and breed specific knowledge. I have seen giant breed dogs younger than Marley literally crippled by premature spaying/neutering.

But as you say, what's done is done. We will also pray she will be safe and free from increased risks. We wish Marley and you the best she is such a cutie.

Robin let's not get me too scared now....crippled really !!!?? I do appreciate your concern.

Right now I'm more concerned of her being stuck in a cage for the night without my cuddles : (

(09-28-2010 04:40 PM)Marley and me Wrote: [ -> ]Robin let's not get me too scared now....crippled really !!!?? I do appreciate your concern.

Right now I'm more concerned of her being stuck in a cage for the night without my cuddles : (

You're welcome, and I know how you feel missing the cuddles. We've been through a lot with our girl Sadie recently with her 2 surgeries for her knee injuries.

Trust me, I am not trying to scare you, just inform you and other forum members. One of the worst cases was one of my breeder's buyers got his 9 week old, male, Mastiff puppy neutered. The poor little guy ended up with spinal and hip deformities. His top line was, of course, ruined. He grew to 35" at the withers but his bones were long and thin, he never filled out, ended up with a very small head and he ended up with a jaw disease that caused him to only be able to open his mouth only slightly. Fortunately, this problem is treated with medication and only flares up occasionally or he would have died. The dog ended up with hip dysplasia caused by malformed hip sockets at an early age and last I heard was not doing well at all. The entire rest of the litter were beautiful and most ended up in the show ring. This guy has to be treated with acupuncture for the rest of his life just to be able to walk.

Now this is an EXTREME CASE of the pup being much too young, but you get the idea. Basically, what spaying/neutering is doing is altering nature's growth and sex hormones which are necessary for proper growth and maturation.

Another case with an 8 month old female she became incontinent for the rest of her life. Also, her bones were thin and elongated and she did not level out.

Another case of a 6 month old female where the bones became thin and elongated, hip sockets poorly formed and dysplastic and a very poor top line. This is an interesting case because there is a picture available and I've asked Margo to send the pic of this girl and her sisters so you can see what happened post op. The difference between she and her sisters is dramatic. 3 of her sisters are champions. I'll post the photo as soon as I get it.

There are numerous recorded cases of bone cancer in large and giant breed dogs who were spayed and neutered at too early an age who had no genetic history of such cancers in their lineage.

Carefully read the citation in my post above if you haven't already. Read some of the other related information posted here on this forum and elsewhere. Focus on giant breeds and specifically Mastiffs. You will see that there is overwhelming evidence of these problems. Does it mean that every dog will suffer the same results? Not necessarily, but the statistical probabilities increase exponentially.

I live in Los Angeles, you would think I would be easily be able to find vets who had a good understanding of the breed specific issues that Mastiffs and other giant breeds must deal with. But no, it is actually quite difficult. I am shocked at how ignorant some vets are when it comes to giant breeds. My breeder, Margo, warned me about this, and she was absolutely right.

Thankfully, she has almost 25 years of experience breeding and showing Mastiffs. She has an an impressive understanding of their specific health concerns which is better than most of the vets I've come in contact with. I consult with her on an ongoing basis on all matters of health, behavior and showing. In the process we have become good friends.

Margo has a contractual stipulation in her sales contracts that under no circumstance may any of her Mastiff pups can be spayed or neutered before 18 months of age!

Again, this information is intended not to frighten you only to inform you and others of the risks and concerns related to neutering/spaying giant breed dogs under 18 months of age. And it is not just giant breeds susceptible to problems, in the citation in my post above the published research at the National Animal Interest Alliance refers to even Beagles suffering long term consequences of premature spaying/neutering. However, the most serious consequences/risks are found in the larger breeds. Click For Citation

-->NAIA Home Page <--



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Well I guess we'll await and see, Marley was purchases strictly as a pet, not to show, not to breed !

......I honestly think you are being an extremist...JMHO !

Don't need any further lectures please.... again thanks for your concern.

(09-29-2010 06:02 PM)Marley and me Wrote: [ -> ]Well I guess we'll await and see, Marley was purchases strictly as a pet, not to show, not to breed !

......I honestly think you are being an extremist...JMHO !

Don't need any further lectures please.... again thanks for your concern.

Whoa, wait a minute you said, "Robin let's not get me too scared now....crippled really !!!??" And I provided you more specific information which I believed you were sincerely asking for.

First of all, whether or not you intend to show or breed Marley is completely irrelevant to the matter we are discussing. I'm sure you aren't implying that because you have no such plans that she is any less entitled to the best chances to grow and mature normally and with the best possible care.

Secondly, I'm not being an extremist, I'm not the only one sharing this information and related experience. I'm pretty certain that the administrator of this forum and absolutely certain my breeder and other experienced, responsible and knowledgeable breeders, scientists and better veterinarians will agree with the information I've shared.

Dr. Larry Katz, PhD a Professor and Chairman of the Animal Sciences Department at Rutgers University stands behind all of the information posted in the citation I referred you to and, in fact, wrote the precis to that paper. Is he an extremist too? The National Animal Interest Alliance is not an "extremist" organization. Nor are the other scientists and veterinarians who have conducted research and published the results of that research. Because you choose not to avail yourself of the published research does not render that research "extremist." It is factual.

Look Jill, this is not a lecture and it's not solely for your benefit. Please refrain from denigrating this information. There are other members and visitors to this forum and they need to know the risks associated with early spaying/neutering. For you to attempt to label me an "extremist" reflects your level of denial and perhaps demonstrates a lack of concern for others who need to know the risks before spaying or neutering prematurely.

I am not trying to lay a guilt trip on you, my sole goal now is to provide information to others so that they can make an informed decision based upon research and scientific facts. And of course I pray Marley will be okay.

I never intended to make you feel uncomfortable or guilty, but I feel strongly on this subject and I will continue to share this information for the love of dogs.

I wish Marley and you the very best.

In post #23 above I stated as follows:

Quote:Another case of a 6 month old female where the bones became thin and elongated, hip sockets poorly formed and dysplastic and a very poor top line. This is an interesting case because there is a picture available and I've asked Margo to send the pic of this girl and her sister so you can see what happened post op. The difference between she and her sisters is dramatic. 3 of her sisters are champions. I'll post the photo as soon as I get it.

I just received the photos from my breeder. Keep in mind that these girls are both from the same litter of 12 puppies. They were virtually identical twins up until 6 months of age.

"C" was spayed at 6 months old because her owner didn't want to deal with her going through even her first heat! The resulting deformities are pronounced and obvious. Even her head to this day remains malformed and undersized, her bones are thin and elongated and the spine is obviously deformed.

There are 10 other littermates, 2 of which were spayed at 18 and 22 months and all are beautiful like "M". Is it any coincidence that "C" suffers from these problems - no way! 11 puppies grow up to look like M and the one who was prematurely spayed ends up with problems. As bad as "C's" problems are they are not nearly as bad as the boy I mentioned above who was neutered at 9 weeks old. Giant breeds are incredibly sensitive to premature spaying/neutering.

In these photos they are 20 months of age. Their litter mates all turned out like "M" and 2 of the other girls out of the same litter turned out like "M" after being spayed at 18 and 22 months (they are now about 3 years old).

"C" at 20 months: (look closely at the head, spine, leg bones and feet)


"M" at 20 months:

"C's" deformities are obvious in the spine, legs and feet (which turn outward). Keep in mind that this photo was taken 14 months after "C" being spayed.

She is already suffering from dysplasia and has difficulty getting up and down and walking even is painful. Running is out of the question. So far there are no symptoms of other systemic problems or cancer. We are hoping that this is the extent of her problems.

Even so "C's" quality of life has been minimized to just getting by. Running, playing, and being pain free are things she may never know. She is being treated for dysplasia with NSAID's but they are known to cause liver and kidney problems so it's a very sad situation.

Perhaps if you had seen the things I've seen and read the research you wouldn't think of me as an "extremist."



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I am not in denial, as previously mentioned aware of the risks... everything has risks!
Will I post horrific pictures of an unspayed female with breast cancer, or other ailments of not spaying ... NO !

Let's just calm down on this, considering it's my introduction thread !

I can continue to post updates my beautiful girl... with confidence she will be fine !!!

(10-02-2010 11:08 AM)Marley and me Wrote: [ -> ]I am not in denial, as previously mentioned aware of the risks... everything has risks!
Will I post horrific pictures of an unspayed female with breast cancer, or other ailments of not spaying ... NO !

Let's just calm down on this, considering it's my introduction thread !

I can continue to post updates my beautiful girl... with confidence she will be fine !!!

As previously stated, I only wish the best for Marley. Please keep in mind that you posted your intent to spay her in her introduction thread and that's what started this discussion.

Let me reassure you, I am calm, but let's be crystal clear: We are NOT discussing spaying versus not spaying.

We are discussing spaying at a suitable age (18 to 24 months in a Mastiff) versus spaying prematurely. And yes, while it has been proven that spaying at the proper age range will slightly reduce the risk of mammary cancer, it has also been proven that premature spaying before 18 months of age can greatly predispose the dog to all sorts of health problems.

So I'm not sure where you are going with the "horrific pictures of an unspayed female with breast cancer, or other ailments of not spaying ..." comment, but that comment is misleading. Yes, mammary cancer is a slightly higher risk with an intact female versus a correctly spayed female. But when the statistics are examined regarding premature spaying versus correctly spaying a mature dog there is no comparison. There can also be complications with spaying too old a female. However, these problems pale in comparison with spaying prematurely.

Bone cancer, deformities, dysplasia, and a host of other ailments are far more likely in a prematurely spayed (before 18 months old) female than an intact ("unspayed") female. While I pray that Marley is the exception to the overwhelming statistical evidence, I believe that you are kidding yourself if you think that this is automatically a safe procedure for a puppy Marley's age - the risk/benefit ratio is unacceptable.
And yes! Please do continue to post pictures of your beautiful girl. We always have enjoyed seeing photos of Marley from 8 weeks and up... she is a sweetie.

Wonderful follow up visit with my vet tonight..... Marley is in excellent health and shape.

(10-07-2010 08:39 PM)Marley and me Wrote: [ -> ]Wonderful follow up visit with my vet tonight..... Marley is in excellent health and shape.

Glad to hear she is doing well. Keep up the good work!

Just turned 11 months, looking good, (in my eyes anyway) !
She's 146.8 lbs, 31" at the shoulders...